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A Conversation with Gwenolee and Bernard Zürcher:

Zürcher Studio, New York - Galerie Zürcher, Paris

By M. Brendon MacInnis

 

 

Gwenolee & Bernard Zürcher, the co-owner directors of Galerie Zürcher in Paris since 1992, recently opened a second exhibition space, Zürcher Studio, in New York’s East Village. They sat down with M to talk about the about their journey in the art world, from Paris to New York.

 

 

How long have you guys been in the business?

Gwenolee Zürcher — 16 or 17 years in Paris. We started there at the end of 1992.

How did the whole thing come together?

Bernard Zürcher — First, I was an art historian, but then I started working for different museums in Paris, Musee de l’Orangerie, Grand Palais, Palais de Tokyo, where I organized modern, not contemporary, art shows. The Palais de Tokyo was the former Museum of Modern art in Paris. The Museum was moved to the Centre Pompidou. I started to work there at the end of the 1970’s. Because of the move, some rooms were empty and part of my job was to organize a few shows there. They wanted to create a special museum, the Musee d’Art et d’Essai, because we worked with students from the Ecole du Louvre; that’s the main curatorial school in France. At the same time you had Musee Picasso and Musée d’Orsay prefigurations, all of these guys were working in different rooms, just next to mine, we were all together in Palais de Tokyo. So this was a place where new and different ideas were emerging.

So did you know each other when you were working there? I guess you would have been, like, in your twenties?

Gwenolee — Yes. When I started, just when I met you [to Bernard].

So Gwen, at that time, were you also involved in art in some way?

Gwenolee — No, I was a translator. My background is that I was an interpreter and translator. I used to work for a big European satellite communications organization called Eutelsat.

Your name, Zürcher, isn’t that German?

Gwenolee — It’s Swiss. That’s Bernard’s name [laughs]. Oh yeah, I’m one hundred percent French. Bernard is half Swiss and half French.

So you’re from the French speaking part of Switzerland?

Gwenolee — Yes. But as a translator I happened to translate work for a publisher, and that was also how we met.

So you met, got together. At some point you opened the gallery; but before you opened the gallery, when was that point when you started to get involved as an art dealer?

Bernard — There is a short story that explains in a way, the first flash. I was an art historian in a classical way, with some modern art, and so on. Then, at the beginning of the 1980’s I was in charge of a show about Fauvism. I was just sitting here in the museum room, with all of these paintings; from Braque, to Matisse, to Vlaminck. They were all on the floor, against the wall, just like that. I thought, all these paintings, all this chef d’oeuvre; the list of their prices, having the insurance list in my hand with 30 million, 12 million, paintings like that that were very expensive and strong works. Suddenly I saw that all these paintings were made by young people, the youngest was Georges Braque, he was 24 and the oldest was Matisse, he was 35. They were all young! Suddenly the image became very strong. If I were living in the beginning of the 20th century, in 1905, I would be very interested in these guys of my same age, young guys! So why not work with my generation instead of just the past, these dead big artists? Why not be more engaged in a contemporary way and find the ones who are going to be the next big important artists in the future, to look toward the future and not the past? It was something very strong in my mind. Maybe I wrote these big [art history] books; okay, I did my job on this subject. But now I want to go further.

Okay.

It’s like now; we spent 15 years 17 years with the gallery in France [Galerie Zürcher], why not go further with a gallery in New York, where I can organize a new bridge between Paris and New York. I always have had the same process in my mind; I want to go further, a new adventure. But back then in the museums in France it was very difficult to find my way because there were very few structures operating with contemporary art. There were fewer museums. There was the Pompidou Center, but it was quite impossible to get to be part of this crew. I would have had to wait10 years maybe; when you are 27 you don’t want to wait so much!

Galleries that show emerging artists, usually have to deal works in the secondary market to make money. Or maybe they get lucky and discover an artist whose work takes off. How do you do it?

Bernard — We never work in the secondary market. We don’t want to do that because it’s not our perspective. We always work from the beginning, in the primary market. We’re known for this in France. It’s a delicate but strong line, because all of our force is behind the promotion of the artists we show. We meet the artists, get to know their work, but we are never driven by the market itself; we want to create a market. Our strategy is to create a market for artists that we trust and have hopes for. At the beginning, it was very difficult.

I see.

Bernard — Sometimes you have a power gallery who steals the artists; it’s a risk, and so the main difficulty for us is to grow like the artists, to grow simultaneously, to protect our situation as a gallery and keep the artist in our group and be in a position to challenge offers. This is why we also wanted to go to New York, to give more visibility to our artists and also to choose new artists from here and from abroad. But to do our job as we have, to keep to our original ideas about focussing on the primary market; that’s the important thing.

Gwenolee — This is very important. In fact collectors remark upon our unique way of working. It’s based on this trust, confidence, conviction, that our artists have real original talent.

But what about artists who see a gallery that decides to invest in them, as emerging artists, as just a stepping stone to the next better offer?

Gwenolee — They go.

Isn’t the best way to protect yourself against that sort of thing to own the artwork from the start? Do you do that? Or do you work on commission. I mean, if you think an artist is good, do you buy a lot of their work?

Bernard — No, we never do that.

Gwenolee — We buy as collectors.

Bernard — Our main capital is not so much that; it is the power of conviction, of confidence. To be able to explain to people what this work of art, this artist we present, what he is doing, why his language is singular, original, why it is part of the future.

Gwenolee — Sticking to this idea.

Bernard — Right, because I am an art historian. To explain why this artist has a great chance to be known in art history; it’s important. This conviction is based on criterion; we know very well past history and how things permit that these guys are part of the history, and why these other ones are not. When some guys are; what are the qualities, the required qualities? And when we know artists for a long time, you have some automatic criteria coming quick, you can judge, you see, you know how to judge. Even if you don’t appreciate him so much, it’s a question of how to measure their strength.

So then, you started with art history and soon you wanted to participate more actively in today’s art world. Do you remember the first time you sold a piece of artwork? I remember the first time I sold work as a dealer; it’s quite a thrill, isn’t it?

Bernard — Yes, it was a painting by Paul Kallos, a Hungarian painter. It was interesting, it was one of the first paintings I sold. As it turned out, this guy was represented in the beginning by one of the most important dealers then, Pierre Loeb. He had a gallery in France before the war, like Pierre Matisse. He was working with Picasso, Braque, Miró. It was that guy who did the first Miró solo show in 1928.

So he’s the person who bought the work originally?

Gwenolee — He was also showing Kallos when he was younger. He was working with Picasso and this generation.

Bernard — The story is that once, before the gallery, just before we opened the gallery in Paris [Galerie Zürcher], we went to an auction and it was in the middle of nowhere. An auction in the middle of France. The auctioneer was showing this tiny painting…

You bought the painting?

Bernard — Yes, it was a painting by him, but at first we don’t know; we just saw that it was a very good painting and I said oh yes! Boom! I took the painting back home. It’s a strong painting, I turned the back and I saw the stamp, Galerie Pierre Loeb on the label! This is history, History with a big “H” coming to me! It gave me a start! His story, in a way, gave me the first stuff to start the gallery. Two months later, we met! This guy, when we opened the gallery two or three months later, he came to the gallery and said, “Hi I’m Paul Kallos, you bought a painting of mine”

Gwenolee — A painting from 1962.

Was it very expensive?

Gwenolee — No, it was very inexpensive. Maybe $1000 or something like that.

Bernard — No, it wasn’t much, but it was the link!

Gwenolee — It was a sign.

Bernard — Pierre Loeb was my very favorite modern dealer.

Gwenolee — More than Pierre Matisse, more interesting.

Bernard — Pierre Matisse is a great dealer but it was easier for Pierre Matisse to be a dealer because he was the son of Henri Matisse, so he came to New York. In a way, Pierre Loeb was like me. When he began, nobody knew him. He had to construct everything from a little room, just 4 meters by 4 meters; it was more of an office. He finished his career exhibiting the best artists in Europe.

And this was in Paris? When you bought this work, you say a few months later you opened your gallery, what year was that?

Gwenolee — We established the gallery at the end of 1992.

Bernard — It was before. It was 1988.

Gwenolee — But the story started three or four years before. There were a few years of transition...

Gwenolee — Yes, then we wrote books.

Bernard — We began in a little space. Very small. In the 6th district [in Paris], it was at that time the end of the 1980’s.

Gwenolee — We bought a wine cellar; then we sold the wine cellar to buy our existing space in Paris, and this happened in 1992.

To get back to the story of the painting; you bought this painting at auction and you saw it as a sign. So how did it go from there? I mean, when did you evolve from collector to dealer?

Bernard — I was a private dealer; at that time I when left the museum and worked for the publisher, as an author and editor, at the same time I began saving works of art. I wanted to go for contemporary art.

When did you first meet each other?

Gwenolee — We met in 1981.

Bernard — When I was working for the museum.

Gwenolee — It took 10 years!

So at that time you were pretty much content with doing translation work?

Gwenolee — Yes, I worked in this big company and also for an art publisher. I translated two books, including a book about New York! It‘s called “New York 1945-1960” written by Dore Ashton, a famous American writer. I translated the book into French. So you see, I already had something connecting me to New York…

So you started from an academic background and then, with the purchase of the Kallos painting, which you sold it as a private dealer, you decided to open your gallery?

Bernard — We were not prepared to be dealers; it’s not easy, how to become dealer. There’s no school for that! I had this painting on my wall, and suddenly people were saying, “Wow, I like this painting, what is this?” Then I would explain and talk about the artist and this guy says “Oh, okay I’ll buy it.” I was surprised! And when he gave me the check, this was the first act to deal, to be a dealer. I said to Gwenolee, “I just sold this painting,” and she said, “Oh good!” And I realized then, as I say, the power of conviction. I was just talking about art. I deal like that. I’m not a guy who has to “sell” something. No, I speak about art and how it is part of this big art history. And if people are then convinced, they say, “Okay, I’ll buy it.”.

Gwenolee — I’ll tell you, it’s always the same story. It goes on like that. We experienced the same thing, I’m talking about a work, in a natural way and then after a certain time, you have some people who start to wonder, “Well how much is it?” They consider buying it. I’m always surprised, but it works.

Bernard — It’s unusual in a way. Maybe the thing is…

Gwenolee — It’s the best way to sell artwork.

Certainly the fact that you’re an art historian helps! When you sold the Kallos work, did you sell it from your home? Did you already have a price in mind?

Bernard — Price; with price you find it with experience. Just to say right price…

Gwenolee — He said, “Let me consider, I have to think of it.” Ok, so then about tree years later you decide to make the investment to have a public space, to open a gallery. When did you start doing art fairs? Gwenolee — We started with FIAC in 1993, then a year later, it was quite quick. We did the first fairs in Europe, Artforum in Berlin… Art forum is a pleasant fair to do, but the art market in Germany is quite slow.

Did you do the one in Cologne? For a while it seemed like that was the big one to do in Germany.

Gwenolee — No, we never did Art Cologne. It used to be good if you showed German artists, you had a good chance. But we’ve never shown a lot of German artists; now we have Katharina Ziemke, but she’s the first German artist we’ve had. We’ve shown Swiss artists; in the fall we’re going to show Michel Huelin, an artist living in Geneva. He had a show at MOCA [Cleveland]. We showed two or three artists who are now quite well known, we showed them at the start, like Emmanuelle Antille, now represented by Eva Presenhuber.

Are you at a stage now where you want to get artists that other galleries have brought up in the ranks?

Bernard — Sometimes there are artists you want to be involved with even though you know they’re represented by another gallery. You can share.

Gwenolee — Sometimes we share, but that’s always at the beginning. We’re not interested in sharing an artist when he’s already grown up. This is always from the start. Where did the idea come from to open the new space [Zürcher Studio] in New York?

Gwenolee — We were interested in New York; we came here very often for 20 years, since 1987. One artist we represented back then, Bruno Rousselot, was living in New York and working close to the Brooklyn Bridge. We visited him regularly. Then Bernard was commissioned to write this big book on Braque, and a friend of ours who was a curator said, “Please come, stay with me, Bernard, there is so much documentation at the MoMA, you cannot write this book without the documentation at the MoMA”. She made a very nice offer and this was our first New York experience. We stayed with her at her place and Bernard went every day to the MoMA. She introduced him.

Bernard — I knew every one at the Museum of Modern Art in France. But when I wanted access to the archives, this is typically French, they said, “No, you cannot touch these files, these files are reserved for this curator, and this person. You have to wait three months…”

Gwenolee — They make everything difficult. Bernard — I cannot wait until this guy or that is allowed to see these files! They belong to the museum, not to him! Gwenolee— Our friend Romy said, “Come to New York! I’ll make everything easy for you!” And she did!

At that time, what was the gallery scene? That was in the late 1980s...

Gwenolee — Soho. Soho. Yes, but there was also the phenomenon of the East Village art scene too at that time.

Gwenolee — Yeah! Exactly! It's interesting that you guys are back in the neighborhood.

Of course now we say LES [Lower East Side]. But it’s really Soho and the East Village, sort of combined. I mean, it’s just a few blocks in this or that direction and you’re in Soho, the East Village, the Lower East Side...

Gwenolee — This is really the start of the contact with New York. The real thing about coming to New York is that I was involved with Pulse, the Pulse Art Fair, and the director, Helen Allen, offered for me to represent the French galleries, to be on the selection committee representing the French galleries, because most New York galleries don’t know the situation with European galleries. We work with young artists, European galleries, we were well informed. Helen Allen said, “Please come and join me, I’m going to start Pulse, a new art fair.” I said this is cool, I really want to be part of it.

How did you meet her again?

Gwenolee — She was visiting Paris, I don’t know how she heard about us. She came to the gallery, I remember she phoned the gallery and said, “I would like to meet you guys one day.” She came, she stayed a long time, at that time it was a recession, she said, “Think about it, I’d love to have you on this committee, I’m building, creating , founding this art fair,” and I said yes right away because I liked her, I thought she was amazing. But we were too late, we didn’t join the first edition, we did the second edition which was in New York, 2006. This was our first experience with the Pulse Art Fair. Then we went on and did Pulse New York in the spring, Pulse Miami in December, and so on. I’m still with Pulse and I’m very happy.

So to be on the selection committee, does that mean you participated as an exhibitor as well?

Gwenolee — Yes. There was a representative from Germany, from London, Berlin, Paris, and Madrid. She did her homework, that’s the difference from one fair to another.

Gwenolee — What was interesting is that we experienced an art fair in New York, and we saw first hand that the European artists we were showing had a lot of impact. A guy we’d heard of through a friend, Rodica Seward [the owner of Tajan a French auctioneer] Ahmet Ertegun was there, he was 80 yeas old when we met him. He’s the founder of Atlantic Records and he was a great supporter. He was visiting the fair and he just bumped into us, and he fell in love with the work of our artist, Marc Desgrandchamps, one of the best French painters, and in a minute, he bought the three biggest paintings we had in the booth; in just one minute, it’s true! He said, “I want it.” He said, “Please come to my house, I want to meet you, I want to know more about you.” He also had a house in Paris, so we met frequently. We introduced him to Marc Desgrandchamps, because he wanted to meet him, so it was a big meeting. It turns out that Marc Desgrandchamps, he’s always listening to Atlantic records; he’s a collector, he’s a fan, he knows a lot about jazz history.

Bernard — They talked together, I remember the meeting we arranged in Paris; in a restaurant for lunch. They talked for two hours! Suddenly Ahmet Ertegun turned to us and said, “This guy is a crazy guy, he knows everything!” He had questions; who is the drummer, who’s the guy playing on this and on that? All the responses were correct, he said, “For a French guy, he knows everything. How can it be? And I love his work!”

Gwenolee — And so he bought more and more stuff! He told people about his work. It was the same story with our Chinese sculptor, Wang Keping, an important artist we discovered a long time ago. Before he died, he said, “You guys, you should bring your artists to New York, you have good artists, it’s good art, you should really come to new york.” It’s not like coming once a year, to show at Pulse in the art fair. “You should really have a more permanent place, showroom to present your artist.” This was very important to us because he was very strong, he was invited to the festival of Montreux for an homage to Ertegun and his wife, and we were sitting in the first row, next to him, we were his guests. He really loved us, it was very strong meeting him, something we cannot forget. He died two years ago in December. There was a big concert in New York with the Rolling Stones and he wanted to greet them at intermission, he went backstage and he talked to them and I don’t know what happened, but he slipped. He fell down. He fainted, went into a coma for three months, and never recovered. Gwenolee — Shaking hands with musicians, the people you’ve been supporting all your life and he was one of the first to support them a long time ago, you know, Led Zeppelin; all these rock legends. If he were still alive, he would be now 83 years old and he would be calling every day and bringing people and saying, “This is great!”

Did he live in New York?

Gwenolee — Yeah, sure! He was also a very nice as a person, very nice, really loving artists and loving art. Living for art. So when you decided to get a space, how did you settle on the Lower East Side?

Gwenolee — We didn‘t like Chelsea, we visited about fifty places on the Upper East Side. Chelsea over saturated. We wanted ground floor space. Once the migration from Soho to Chelsea began, things filled up there pretty quickly.

Gwenolee — Right, but I’m sure more galleries will come to this area and join us. In Chelsea, what we don’t like is, you know the galleries in Chelsea, for me they are like shoe boxes, you open the door of one shoe box, and you enter another! It means art, but it becomes another good to consume. It’s consumption. This is not our idea of art. We think art is not only something to consume. It’s much more having to do with the brain, with the intellect. It’s not only a commercial product, it’s not just a consumer good.

There is a social fabric here [in the LES], it’s more the integration of boutiques and restaurants and clubs and galleries, people live here.

Bernard — Finally we found this place and saw good vibrations, because this place was before an artist’s studio.

Gwenolee — Joel Shapiro, a sculptor, this was his studio. He was working here for 21 years. He came last month and visited us! Now he’s 66 years old, he’s famous. He said, “This place is too small for me!” He rented it from the same landlord.

What fairs do you do now?

Gwenolee — We’re doing Pulse Miami, we’re doing FIAC. Bernard — FIAC is more interesting now, even if we prefer to focus on the art market in New York and build a market here. In France it’s okay because we are known, it’s not so important to continue with the fairs.

Gwenolee — Here, Pulse is important because this is a way to approach the American market, it’s very important.

Pulse has got the Miami connection too. Didn’t they do something in London at some point?

Gwenolee — At one time, yes, but it was not a success; it was so bad they didn’t repeat it.

A lot of people are giving up on London, what about the West Coast?

Gwenolee — Right now we want to focus on New York and Miami. Bernard — It’s the very beginning of our story here; we opened three months ago, the new gallery. It’s a new start, a new adventure.

Gwenolee — It’s very challenging. What if you find out you like it better here?

Gwenolee — At the moment, Bernard is finding New York more exciting than Paris.

The space you have in Paris, is it also a ground floor?

Bernard — Same size as this, very similar to this one; the location is very near the Pompidou Center.

Gwenolee — We’re very well located, we’re lucky in Paris, we have a very beautiful space. Come to think of it, all the galleries in Paris are ground floor spaces.

Gwenolee — Yes, to stack galleries on floors, it’s a New York thing. First of all in France, the rent is much cheaper than here, even for ground floor. Its half the price at least. Maybe 60% cheaper. So you see…

Bernard — It’s an old place, from the 17th century. We are in the Marais, where there are very old buildings.

I remember that Vivi [Asia bureau editor for M] said you have interest in Chinese or Asian art. How will you develop that?

Gwenolee — We’ve always worked with this historical artist, Wang Keping. He is the founder of the Stars Group, which is the first Avant-Garde in China [in 1979]. I think many galleries want to go into this Chinese art market because it‘s hip, but a lot of it’s commercial things. I’m not so convinced. I am more prudent…

Bernard — She speaks Chinese! Gwenolee — I’m learning. I also worked as an Asian expert in France at the time. But it’s more like a hobby; then the hobby became something else. I’m really interested in Chinese art history, so I’m open to see what happens. We’ve met a lot of Chinese artists, many painters in Beijing, but I have never been so convinced as to bring them to New York or Paris. Not for the moment, but we’ve been looking.

Bernard — For us, it’s not a question of a market; it’s only a question of art. Even in new emerging countries, you see new artists, you have a good chance to discover new artists. That’s okay, but it’s not why the market is opening. Now it’s all global; it’s interesting, more quickly you can have a collection. But for us it’s only a question of art, of artists, of working with a human being! M 

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Anya Rubin         

Andre Zarre New York 

By Peggy Healy

Anya Rubin's newest work, a series of enamel paintings entitled Through a Glass Darkly, was apparently inspired by poet, essayist and novelist Andrew Codrescu's The Posthuman Dada Guide: Tzara and Lenin Play Chess, in which Codrescu posits a chess match between Lenin and Tzara, founder of the anti-war Dada movement. In it, the author says, "... the miracle is that we are still here and young artists are remaking the joint." Rubin fancies herself one of the young artists "remaking the joint." Her work addresses a post-human society, connected to all kinds of electronic gadgets. Communication is transmitted through electronic pulses and, as a result, we are becoming like cartoons in a virtual reality.

At first glance Rubin's paintings are reminiscent of Jackson Pollock's action paintings, but the comparison is superficial. Hidden beneath Rubin's scrolls of dripped color are shadowy figures that haunt the canvas. In some paintings, the more the viewer looks, the more details of a single figure emerge, like a reflection in water as it stills. In others, the deeper we probe, the more numerous become the figures or faces. These figures ache to be heard and to connect, heart to heart, instead of data-byte to data-byte.

Rubin spent years working with oils before settling on enamel paint. One of the more interesting works in the show is Inspired by Rebellious Silence. She drew inspiration for this piece from another book, After the Revolution: Women Who Transformed Contemporary Art, by Eleanor Heartneyne. One of the "transformers"depicted is Shirin Neshat, a contemporary Iranian visual artist living in New York. Neshat's own Rebellious Silence depicts women enrobed in chadors, their hands, face and feet inscribed with stanzas of poetry by Iranian female poets.

The painting, Left Behind depicts the poignancy of what remains of a woman after death, whose presence lingers in familiar objects left behind. Here, Rubin is at her most tender and sad, mourning the loss of a loved one at the M

 

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Beyond Time: Andrea Chiesi

Nohra Haime Gallery

By Vivi Ying He

During his first one person show in New York, self-taught Italian artist Andrea Chiesi discusses his paintings, which are based on photographs that he takes of empty and abandoned spaces.

M: Many of your paintings feature abandoned places. Why did you choose these places to paint?

AC: I started to paint abandoned places like factories and heavy industry because I’m interested in painting the history and memory of the last century. My first medium was shooting photos, but then I wanted to realize a traditional technique, oil on canvas because I love the history of Italian painting. I tried to do a new view of painting with the emotion of our time. Painting oil on canvas, oil on linen. I change the colors, the photos, to be just black and white. And I transform the real places into more metaphysical places; about the mind, the soul, nowhere.

M: I could feel that because I’ve seen similar work in Chinese art, with abandoned pictures; but they were just pure photographs. Yours are paintings; there is the emotion, the sadness of something that it is gone.

AC: There is emotion. I try to give light, I try to stop the time. Suspend the moment. It is interesting for me to give hope to these kinds of pictures about shadow; the shadow of the light. It’s a spiritual search, about control, about concentrating the technique of painting. I mean it’s hard to get the light; it’s similar to life, there is hope, in going to the light.

M: About hope, what do you mean?

AC: It’s a simple view. First, I’m a painter. I use language with imagery, I think one of the powers paintings have it that they give something to your soul. It’s a religious way of thinking of life. These painted places are out of time, out of the world, so I try to give hope to myself and to those who view the pictures.

M: Each person who sees your paintings will have a different feeling; the experience is different. One may see the sadness, others the hope, all have different interpretations. Are these all of the same place? Yes, it’s an abandoned place, a factory. It was a steel factory, abandoned and collapsed. It lives again in the pictures, like a cathedral of our time.

AC: Many of your paintings study architecture. I didn’t study architecture, but I’m interested in places where people have passed through. These places are waiting for people to come again; my interest is in painting, not architecture.

M: I understand that you are self-taught, for all of the paintings. Did you also do the photography that the paintings are based on?

AC: Yes, for me it’s necessary to go to places. I never use photos shot by someone else, or downloaded from the internet. I have to go and feel the place. A lot of times I have problems with the police; they’re closed places and so I don’t have authorization. I like exploring the landscape, seeing the transformation of the town. That’s the first part. The final part, the panting is more spiritual.

M: First you take pictures, then you make the paintings. That’s how you do it?

AC: Yes, first there is the real, physical place. Then I paint, and another process starts. I change the light and architecture; the technique is traditional. Hand drawn, slow painting. These sizes take at least two weeks to a month depending on my concentration. It’s very detailed, a lot of technique. The detail is what I mean about life being difficult, to go into the light.

M: How did you teach yourself painting?

AC: I started drawing in the 1980’s when I was young. But not in a contemporary style, I started drawing in punk rock gothic, I drew alterative kinds things; I arrived at oil on canvas later. It’s been a slow process. But it’s always growing.

M: How did you start to work with this gallery, with Nohra?

AC: She saw my gallery show in Milan, at my gallery there last year. It was simple, she liked it. Then there were some months for organizing the transport, new pictures, new work.

M: I feel in the contemporary art world, I haven’t seen work similar to yours, most people do portraits. The feeling of your painting is unique, it’s not only technique but the way you present it.

AC: You’re very kind; you’re right, maybe that’s so. I did not study art, I became a painter through drawing.

M: Did you do an apprenticeship?

AC: No, it was something that I had inside me, I had to get it out, to express it.

M: What about your family?

AC: My sister is a painter but she never exhibited. It’s my own motivation and choice of life. To be a painter now, doing this kind of painting, it was at first a life choice. Then sometime after, it became my job — what I doing for a living. In Italy, there are many people doing architecture or art who did not study. The Italians seem to know, on the street, about painting. It’s a good, cultured environment. Many people absorb the centuries of art; but the problem now in Italy is that the government doesn’t invest much in culture, so artists have had to do a lot on their own. There is not political culture for contemporary art, so everyone is alone. The atmosphere is good for starting and growing up, and then trying to do other things outside. M